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 Post subject: LT1 or LS1 Firehawks?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:31 pm 
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Location: Near St. Louis (Southern IL)
OK, I know this is going to open up a can of worms. Before I even ask, I know that some of you are going to answer "It doesn't matter what others think, only what you like." I agree to some extent.

Here is the question: Which is more valuable to a collector; and LT1 Firehawk or and LS1 Firehawk? If you go by production numbers, the LT1 was more rare: In 4 years of production there were 1,328 produced. The LS1, in 4 years, had a total production of 3,501. That is almost 3 LS1 Firehawks to every 1 LT1 Firehawk. Now, I'm not comparing mechanics or speed. Obviously, the LS1 has an edge on the LT1s by around 20 hp. And 7 years of technology should've yielded better handling by the last year. But as far as value, shouldn't an LT1 be more collectible? And didn't they cost more, even before inflation? My 1995, which came with original paperwork, sold for around $38,500 - a sizeable chunk of change in 1995! I'm asking because I almost sold my '95 for an awesome '01 this past summer. Even though the '01 wouldn've been a better performer (I don't really race), I like being the only LT1 Firehawk in a town of 25,000! What say ye?

_________________
1995 Red Firehawk Convertible #509, 6 speed, 315 HP version (plus mods).
http://www.ilfba.com/gallery/albums/album06/Firehawk_006.thumb.jpg wrote:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:23 am
Posts: 139
Neither, an LT4 Firehawk (only 29 made). :D

Just kidding. I honestly don't know which will be worth more in the coming years. You can make an argument either way. However, it all boils down to one thing. That is, someone willing to buy it. It's not worth anything if there isn't a buyer.

Personally I'd keep the 95 and buy the 01 too. If you can't do that, then buy or keep which ever makes you the happiest. Enjoyment of your car is the most important thing.

Just my thoughts on this "opened-can of worms".

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-jd_firehawk

05 Corvette Coupe - Z51, 1SB, Color Matching Door Handles
01 Pontiac Firehawk 10th Anniversary #003 - SLP Loudmouth and Y-pipe, SLP Lid, STB, SFC
96 Pontiac Comp T/A #82


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:20 am 
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Location: Mesa,AZ
LT1's because LS1's suck.. how's that to get things started? :P

My preference is also a super clean low mileage LT4 Hawk. But as far as LT1 hawks go, I am biased towards the 96-97's because of the fog lights, uplevel spoiler and Firehawk wheel combination. I wish they would have had a Firehawk specific air intake though. Ideally I would like to have a 92, 95, my 96, 97 LT4, and an 02.

As for a collector... I was at Barrett Jackson when a guy took those 3 third gen Hawks and there obviously weren't enough buyers to demand a decent price for them. Dude was upset to say the least. So it all depends on if there is a buyer and how loaded with expendable cash he/she has.

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Arizona F-body Association - President
purple wrote:
'96 Purple M6 #38 of 41, status=noisy
'00 Black M6 #127 of 741, sold in Utah
red wrote:
1994 Red M6 #319 of 500, status=tetris puzzle
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:06 am 
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Location: Toms River,NJ
To be honest who knows which one will be collectable in the future. I doubt any LS1 models will be.

The first 20 something are the ones to grab (91-92) and the LT4 SS and Firehawks maybe the next ones.

Only time will tell and the first Hawks are almost there. 16 years old and what are they going for now? 40K plus new and maybe mid 20's now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:23 am
Posts: 262
Location: Thomasville, NC
Unless you have a crystal ball, you're much better off investing in stocks/bonds/mutual funds and driving the hell out of your car and enjoying it than you are worrying about which ones will be more valuable.

Most valuable ones? Anything that says 'SS' on it. Sure, Firehawks are rarer by far than Slowmaros, but 69 TAs are rarer, too....and any POS 69 Camaro is going to pull serious $$$ heads and shoulders over any Firebird.

Were I looking for a collector piece, I'd search out a rare-optioned LT4 SS, preferably a vert (don't even know if they're available), or one of the Hendrick SS's...something like that.

I'm a Pontiac guy, through and through...but the Camaro has more recognition, and brings more money.

Byrdman

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2001 Trans Am Firehawk #302 of 540
1995 Formula


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:33 pm
Posts: 113
Location: Near St. Louis (Southern IL)
Well, I agree with pretty much every comment thus far. I'm certainly not looking at my Firehawk as a money maker investment - my wife is a broker with Edward Jones and I've heard the same comments many times!

Pretty much, I just want something that is fairly rare so that everyone doesn't have one (think the previous generation of Mustangs!). Yes, I used the term collector but I should've narrowed it down to something that I'll drive for fun, limited mileage (not a daily driver) and would probably hang onto for years to come. When I asked for a comparison, I didn't include LT4s or 3d gen Firehawks since there were so few produced of either.

Byrdman, I'm Pontiac all the way like yourself. My family owns 4 Pontiacs and nothing else. I'm personally on my 9th Pontiac! You listed yourself as a former owner of 2 Firebirds. What do you drive now?

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1995 Red Firehawk Convertible #509, 6 speed, 315 HP version (plus mods).
http://www.ilfba.com/gallery/albums/album06/Firehawk_006.thumb.jpg wrote:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:23 am
Posts: 262
Location: Thomasville, NC
Maxedwell wrote:
Byrdman, I'm Pontiac all the way like yourself. My family owns 4 Pontiacs and nothing else. I'm personally on my 9th Pontiac! You listed yourself as a former owner of 2 Firebirds. What do you drive now?

Nah...The 01 'hawk was the winning car at Carlisle in '02...I have a pretty nice 95 Formula now, and my wife drives an 01 Grand Prix. Several on here know the Silver Formula and the story on it, suffice it to say it would be a money bringer (compared to what I paid for it) if I were to sell it. I'm the 2nd owner and am good friends with the original owner that spec'd it and picked it up Jan 27th, 1995. Its low-mileage and stock internals, with the SLP RamAir hood, TTM wheels, suspension and brake mods, and the Firehawk take-off D/D exhaust being about the only things done to it.

My DD is whatever the dealership gives me as a loaner...right now its a 99 Buick LeSabre.

Byrdman

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Former Owner...
2001 Trans Am Firehawk #302 of 540
1995 Formula


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:52 am 
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Location: Green Bay, WI
Maxedwell wrote:
OK, I know this is going to open up a can of worms. Before I even ask, I know that some of you are going to answer "It doesn't matter what others think, only what you like." I agree to some extent.

Here is the question: Which is more valuable to a collector; and LT1 Firehawk or and LS1 Firehawk? If you go by production numbers, the LT1 was more rare: In 4 years of production there were 1,328 produced.


The LT1 Firehawk was produced for 5 years.
1. 1993.
2. 1994.
3. 1995.
4. 1996.
5. 1997.

_________________
2002 T/A Firehawk Convertible #0796 BlackEbonyBlack 6-spd, WI Plate "OH2 HAWK"
GM: TCS, Hurst, 12CD, Last of the Breed
SLP: Bilstein, Chromes, Cover, Floor Mats, Rear Deck Mat, Portfolio
SLP After: Skip-shift Eliminator, Customized Rear Deck Mat


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2002 10:25 pm
Posts: 206
Location: Garner, NC
Easy answer, based on supply and demand and age. LT1 Hawks are likely better "investments".

There were 3x as many LS1 FH's built as there were LT1s. Plus, LT1s are simply older cars, and will reach "older/rarer" status sooner.

That all said, gotta believe that LS1s are the better performing cars. I owned a 1996 Formula WS6, which was transformed to a WS6 by SLP. 305 horses, me recalls. Likely very close to the hp and upgrading done by SLP on 93-95 FHs? There is simply no comparing the performance between the two cars...........

_________________
2002 Formula Firehawk, #738, red/ebony, MN6/Hurst, T-tops, chrome wheels, Bilstein suspension. Mods: SLP y-pipe and LoudmouthII exhaust, air temp sensor, Clarion subwoofer, Gorilla lugnuts, BMR strut tower brace, Lou's ShortStik


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:43 am 
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Garnermike wrote:

That all said, gotta believe that LS1s are the better performing cars. I owned a 1996 Formula WS6, which was transformed to a WS6 by SLP. 305 horses, me recalls. Likely very close to the hp and upgrading done by SLP on 93-95 FHs? There is simply no comparing the performance between the two cars...........


ya know, no offense, but i dont get these kind of answers. with the stats reported (correct me if they are wrong) below, how can you tell a huge performance difference, unless it was in the suspension

0-60
lt1 - 4.9
ls1 - 5.1

1/4 mile
lt1 - 13.5
ls1 - 13.3

and with hp ratings being the same for most years and an extra 20 for 2 latter years, i dont see how a huge performance difference can be assessed, other than what i said, in the feel of the ride which would be accomplished by the suspension.

now, i have heard the lt1s are more torquey while they ls1s seem to have more power at speed...obviously the power curve is different...however, ive never ridden in a ls1 hawk

please correct me if anything is incorrect, its late and im exhausted

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http://www.fquick.com/93_Hawk_064 wrote:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g297/drewreo/LT1Hawkcopy.jpg wrote:

red wrote:
84 wrote:
click ^ to visit my FQuick
navy wrote:
84 wrote:
1993 Firehawk #064
9,123 miles


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2002 10:25 pm
Posts: 206
Location: Garner, NC
Not trying to start any flaming. Was simply comparing my '96 WS6 to what I drive now. Maybe that 305 hp '96 Formula WS6 is no good surrogate for a '93-95 Hawk? Maybe David H. can answer, as SLP did the work on both models????

The 3rd and 4th gears in the 2002 Hawk are pure g-force fun compared to my '96.

And yes, suspension-wise, in the twisties, the 2002 Hawk is superior (but of course it has Bilstein).

_________________
2002 Formula Firehawk, #738, red/ebony, MN6/Hurst, T-tops, chrome wheels, Bilstein suspension. Mods: SLP y-pipe and LoudmouthII exhaust, air temp sensor, Clarion subwoofer, Gorilla lugnuts, BMR strut tower brace, Lou's ShortStik


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:04 pm 
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Location: Toms River,NJ
I have owned both 96WS6 and 10th Firehawk the figures above are alittle off. Yes the LT1 will beat an LS1 in the 60Ft mark (stock and same trans) but by far when the LS1 hits the 1000 ft mark all the LT1 will see is tail lights.

My 96WS6 stock - 13.98 @ 101mph (A4)
10th FireHawk stock - 13.04 @ 105mph (A4)

The 98-00 LS1 would be slower and should do the 1/4 between 13.4 - 13.6 (Stock)

As far as handling goes with the same setup and driver the LT1 and LS1 should handle the same, but the LT1 may perform better with a track with more curves on it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:43 am 
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Location: Green Bay, WI
I noticed a few things above.
The LT1 Hawks had 315hp available, even in '95. The 96 WS6 mentioned at 305hp might not be a good comparison.
The LS1 engine was lighter, correct? This vastly changes the suspension in terms of wieght ratio and total load to handle, which should have a big difference in handling, as it should have a big difference in what can be done to alter the suspension from stock as well.
The 1/4 mile isn't about handling, so maybe some are confused about that aspect.
Isn't the geraring different between LT1 and LS1? When the LS1 was rated with greater hp and greater tq, didn't the gearing change to take advantage of the difference? I don't recall hearing the trans were the same.

_________________
2002 T/A Firehawk Convertible #0796 BlackEbonyBlack 6-spd, WI Plate "OH2 HAWK"
GM: TCS, Hurst, 12CD, Last of the Breed
SLP: Bilstein, Chromes, Cover, Floor Mats, Rear Deck Mat, Portfolio
SLP After: Skip-shift Eliminator, Customized Rear Deck Mat


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:16 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:23 am
Posts: 262
Location: Thomasville, NC
02hawk796 wrote:
I noticed a few things above.
The LT1 Hawks had 315hp available, even in '95. The 96 WS6 mentioned at 305hp might not be a good comparison.

10 hp in the advertising brochure won't make that much difference. Trust me. The LT1 has 70% of its power down low; the LS1 needed to turn to get the numbers up.
Quote:
The LS1 engine was lighter, correct? This vastly changes the suspension in terms of wieght ratio and total load to handle, which should have a big difference in handling, as it should have a big difference in what can be done to alter the suspension from stock as well.

Yeah, the LS1 is lighter, but the mounting of the engine and all the accessories minimize the more difference than you think. I think the biggest change in suspensions was merely shocks and springs, to balance out the new weight bias.
Quote:
The 1/4 mile isn't about handling, so maybe some are confused about that aspect.

True, but dynos and internet racing go by the wayside when you're making passes down the 1320. Bandit's comparo is the best I've seen...the only difference in the car was the powerplant.
Quote:
Isn't the geraring different between LT1 and LS1? When the LS1 was rated with greater hp and greater tq, didn't the gearing change to take advantage of the difference? I don't recall hearing the trans were the same.

Nope...the drivelines are the same, even down to the gearing. 3.42 stock for the V8s on LT1 and LS1 cars...its DEFINITELY true what they say about 4.10s waking one up. I had 3.42s in my 01 Firehawk, and it seems weak next to my 95 Formula with 4.10s. Granted, when we get above 1320 speeds, I'll lose my butt to the LS1 car, but I'll be waiting there for him at about 110!

Byrdman

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Former Owner...
2001 Trans Am Firehawk #302 of 540
1995 Formula


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:09 pm
Posts: 72
well im no expert but if they were rated 310hp and 315hp and my 02 is 345hp stock adv well my stocker has had more than one lt1 for lunch but as far as rarity goes yea there are less lt1s and to me just as great of a mod platform but as history has shown that the most sought after model has usually been the last year made 87 gn for ex but as quoted earlier there were 3to1 difference in numbers made but that means there will be 3 times more past owners wanting that car they used to have 20 yrs from now so i think the ls1s will carry there value better than one might think


just a thought


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