Actual HP

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Re: Actual HP

Post by BLACK-HAWK » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:26 pm

and ford needed a supercharger on their 4.6L to beat it! :lol:
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Re: Actual HP

Post by Scott Chab » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:51 am

BLACK-HAWK wrote:and ford needed a supercharger on their 4.6L to beat it! :lol:
And GM needed a 5.7L to beat Ford's 4.6L.
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Re: Actual HP

Post by LT4 Hawk 9 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:10 pm

Scott Chab wrote:Maybe I should have said that the only LT f-body motors that were underrated were the LT4s. I don't think the LT1 f-body motors were underrated at all.
:roll: Ooookay... and once again I say:
LT4 Hawk 9 wrote:My '97 LT4 Hawk, Loudmouth and K&N, 291hp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szzt4CO50tg
330FWHP minus 13% loss is 287.1 RWHP.
1-My car put down 291RWHP with a K&N and Loudmouth.
2-Ryan's car put down 280.1 RWHP stock.

These are the only 2 dyno results from stock LT4 F-body cars I have ever seen. If you have more, showing that they were underrated, please do tell. :wink:

To add to my case, I also say once again:
LT4 Hawk 9 wrote:Back in 2002 at the Firehawk Rally, Zeke Maxwell told me that they extrude honed the manifolds on the LT4 F-Bodies in order to get them up to where they were REALLY 330hp.
If you don't know, Zeke was the head of the shop at SLP Canada. That is who did the work on all of the LT4 F-Bodies. He told me that he drove all of the LT4 Firehawks himself after the conversions. I'd say he had a little bit of a hand in the dyno testing...and knows that it took extrude honing to get the numbers up, as he said. Again, if you have information that says otherwise, please post away. I know I'd be interested to see it.

PS- If you wanna get REAL picky, there were no LT4 F-Body "motors" (or even engines)at all. Just check my VIN. My car was an LT1. Some redneck may as well have swapped in that LT4 in the backyard over a case of Budweiser... :lol:
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Re: Actual HP

Post by Scott Chab » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:36 pm

LT4 Hawk 9 wrote: :roll: Ooookay... and once again I say:

My '97 LT4 Hawk, Loudmouth and K&N, 291hp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szzt4CO50tg

330FWHP minus 13% loss is 287.1 RWHP.
1-My car put down 291RWHP with a K&N and Loudmouth.
2-Ryan's car put down 280.1 RWHP stock.

These are the only 2 dyno results from stock LT4 F-body cars I have ever seen. If you have more, showing that they were underrated, please do tell. :wink:

To add to my case, I also say once again:
LT4 Hawk 9 wrote:Back in 2002 at the Firehawk Rally, Zeke Maxwell told me that they extrude honed the manifolds on the LT4 F-Bodies in order to get them up to where they were REALLY 330hp.
If you don't know, Zeke was the head of the shop at SLP Canada. That is who did the work on all of the LT4 F-Bodies. He told me that he drove all of the LT4 Firehawks himself after the conversions. I'd say he had a little bit of a hand in the dyno testing...and knows that it took extrude honing to get the numbers up, as he said. Again, if you have information that says otherwise, please post away. I know I'd be interested to see it.

PS- If you wanna get REAL picky, there were no LT4 F-Body "motors" (or even engines)at all. Just check my VIN. My car was an LT1. Some redneck may as well have swapped in that LT4 in the backyard over a case of Budweiser... :lol:
:roll:

So I guess someone should tell SLP and all of the LT4 Hawk and SS owners that their cars don't exist. As far as your VIN showing that your car is an LT1, all TA Hawks VINs show that they are TAs. Are you saying that they aren't Firehawks because the VIN doesn't say so?

I've seen dyno result that show that the LT4 motor in the f-body (or LT4 f-body as some like to call them) was underrated. There was a post on this board years ago that the owner of LT4 Hawk #1 dynoed the car bone stock and it put down almost 320rwhp. That is around 365-375hp with a 13-15% loss.
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Re: Actual HP

Post by BLACK-HAWK » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:44 pm

i've heard of several "factory freaks" on LS1tech.com
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Re: Actual HP

Post by BLACK-HAWK » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:46 pm

here's a fun thread for you...

viewtopic.php?t=6557&highlight=freak
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Re: Actual HP

Post by LT4 Hawk 9 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:52 pm

Scott Chab wrote: :roll:

So I guess someone should tell SLP and all of the LT4 Hawk and SS owners that their cars don't exist. As far as your VIN showing that your car is an LT1, all TA Hawks VINs show that they are TAs. Are you saying that they aren't Firehawks because the VIN doesn't say so?

I've seen dyno result that show that the LT4 motor in the f-body (or LT4 f-body as some like to call them) was underrated. There was a post on this board years ago that the owner of LT4 Hawk #1 dynoed the car bone stock and it put down almost 320rwhp. That is around 365-375hp with a 13-15% loss.
I don't believe you are smelling what I'm stepping in. I think we all can agree that the LT4 cars, as well as the pre-98 T/A Hawks are a little bit different animal than their more "mainstream" siblings. However, I am not saying that anything is/is not a Firehawk. I will say this, though: There are so many "what if's" for these cars that it is nothing short of sketchy already, and will likely be worse in the future if we aren't diligent in tracking what we have.
For example:
*My car's RPO code shows an LT1, and no WU6 code. So, if 30 years from now, the SLP door tags are faded or missing, and SLP has closed shop, guess what?...as a potential buyer, there is no way to confirm it is a real Firehawk unless PHS has record (and if SLP didn't give them that info, where would they get it?). Same could be said for the pilot cars (I assume these are the T/A's of which you speak?)...If owners of them don't keep good records, and PHS can't help...who's to say what can/can't be proven later on down the road? If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? If a Firehawk is a Firehawk, but no one can prove it, is it a Firehawk?
Anyway...What I was saying, before you twisted it and put words in my mouth, is that my car is "supposed" to have an LT1. Ask GM. It evidently didn't matter if it was SLP or your buddy Bob from down the street did the swap...THEY weren't gonna warranty that cobbled-up mess! :paranoid: You keep talking about LT4 F-body "motor"...I was simply stating that there were no LT4 F-body motors...they were Y-body motors that somebody other than GM put in an F-body. It's splitting hairs, and not the main point of my original posting, though. Just picking at you a little bit... :wink:

My main point was that I think you were fed a line of crap that you, like many others, believed. Back in '97, word on the 'net was that those LT4 Hawks were waaaaay underrated...and the rumor still lives. I know my car sat in the showroom for nearly 9 months, and I got it for $5500 UNDER sticker...and #8 was still sitting there for several months in the spot where I pulled mine out from. Talked up to help sell them?...maybe so. Regardless, from what I have seen with my car, it's crap. I did a little more looking tonight, and found:
LT4 FH #27, 280.8hp
LT4 SS #91, 285.9hp
LT4 SS #??, 301hp
LT4 SS #??, 281hp
In addition to the ones I posted earlier:
LT4 FH #9, 291hp
96 Vette, 297hp
96 Vette, 281hp
96 Vette, 283hp
Now, these results were found by a little time searching "LT4 Camaro SS dyno", "LT4 Firehawk dyno", and "LT4 dyno". Not tough to find.
Add to this the words from the horse's mouth, from the man overseeing the dyno testing, telling me that it was a struggle to get them to lay 330FWHP, and I think that I can rest my case.
You say you remember way back when some guy that evidently is not on here any more said his was 320 at the wheels. Okay...whatever. The search function is not exactly stellar on this site, but I am unable to find anything. Again, I would like to see it. Not sayin' it didn't happen...but I'd be interested to see it. I still believe that the hype of the LT4 cars was built up (how and by whom, I have no clue) to make everyone think they were all that and a bag of chips...and they were simply nothing more than a small step up from the LT1 in HP.

Underrated?...nope. Now, if somehow you know more about the subject than myself and the other 7 folks listed above, who own stock LT4 powered cars and paid to have them dyno'd, then by all means, go ahead and prove me wrong. Otherwise, the "somebody posted, but I can't find it", and "I remember the talk when they came out" just won't hold up against real numbers.
Mike Moore
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Re: Actual HP

Post by BLACK-HAWK » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:53 pm

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Re: Actual HP

Post by Scott Chab » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:24 am

LT4 Hawk 9 - You're missing my point as well. A TA Firehawk is a TA, not a Firehawk. A Formula Firehawk is a Formula. Check the VINs and call an insurance company. There is nothing in the VIN that designates the car as a Hawk.

PHS does have records of Firehawks, I bought a package from them when I bought mine in '98. SLP has records too (except for what they lost in a fire) so my suggestion for all Firehawk owners is that if you don't have documentation on your Hawk, get it while you can.

As far as I'm concerned there is an LT4 f-body motor and a LT4 Vette motor just like there is an LS1 f-body motor and an LS1 Vette motor. That of course is my opinion, not fact.

Here is the thread about the LT4. Found it on Google.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2184

I'm out.
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Re: Actual HP

Post by LT4 Hawk 9 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:36 am

Scott Chab wrote:LT4 Hawk 9 - You're missing my point as well. A TA Firehawk is a TA, not a Firehawk. A Formula Firehawk is a Formula. Check the VINs and call an insurance company. There is nothing in the VIN that designates the car as a Hawk.
So...why you changed the subject from ENGINE in the VIN, to FIREHAWK OPTION in the VIN, I don't really understand, but whatever. I'll bite. Can you tell if a car is a Firehawk from info contained *IN* the VIN...no, but FROM the VIN I can absolutley tell your car is a Firehawk. Run that VIN through GM, have them give you a list of RPO codes from the VIN. Up comes B4U, WU6, or whatever code designates Firehawk for that particular year. Now, the LT4's do not have that code at all. Thus, no proof from the VIN that it is a Firehawk. No need to call the fools at the insurance company...they think my Scout is a station wagon, and it has 2 bucket seats and a pickup top. They also think it has a 198ci turbo diesel, but it has an LT1. :wink:
What *I* was saying before you flipped it around, is that my car has an engine in it that it isn't "supposed" to have. Go to GM and ask them for a replacement main bearing cap for my car...give them the VIN...it will be the LT1 main cap, and it ain't a-gonna fit my LT4 block. Same with intake, cylinder head, and whatever else. Plain and simple. After the car was built, somebody else took it and changed a bunch of crap. Proof is in the RPO codes, obtained by running the VIN through GMs system. It has RPO code LT1. There was no RPO code LT4 for any F-Body.
Scott Chab wrote:PHS does have records of Firehawks, I bought a package from them when I bought mine in '98. SLP has records too (except for what they lost in a fire) so my suggestion for all Firehawk owners is that if you don't have documentation on your Hawk, get it while you can.
I would not bet on them having info on the 29 LT4 cars. They may, they may not. It's not worth my money to find out. I bought my car new, and I know it's legit. If I were to buy one used, I would have to spend the money for it. It wouldn't shock me to find out that PHS couldn't verify it as an SLP modified car, since it doesn't carry the RPO WU6.
Scott Chab wrote:As far as I'm concerned there is an LT4 f-body motor and a LT4 Vette motor just like there is an LS1 f-body motor and an LS1 Vette motor. That of course is my opinion, not fact.
Call GM and ask them for an alternator bracket for a '97 Firebird with a factory installed LT4 engine, and see what they tell you. I imagine that they would stand on the other side of that fence.
Scott Chab wrote:Here is the thread about the LT4. Found it on Google.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2184

I'm out.
Sweet! You backed up your claim to that one! I'm really impressed. I can add that to my list. That's George Bass, who from what I've heard sold that car. Not down-playing it at all, but I wonder if it was a "freak" car, being #1, and possibly doing some magazine tests? I know Pontiac Enthusiast did an article on the LT4 Hawk, but they used the prototype car for theirs...and it had a different tune and headers, from what Matt Murphy said.
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1997 LT4 Firehawk #009

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Re: Actual HP

Post by skymaster7 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:19 pm

Googled LT4

Wikipedia

LT4The LT4 was a special high-performance version of the new-generation LT1. With the addition of a slightly more aggressive camshaft profile, 1.6:1 roller aluminum rocker arms, high-flow cylinder heads, and an intake manifold (painted red) port matched to the raised port LT4 cylinder heads, it was rated at 330 horsepower (250 kW) and 340 lb·ft (461 N·m). It was introduced in the 1996 model year, for the last year of the C4 Corvette, and came standard on all manual transmission (ZF 6-speed equipped) C4 Corvettes. The engine was passed down to special versions of the Camaro and Firebird the next model year.

The LT4 was available on the following vehicles:

1996 Chevrolet Corvette when equipped with 6-speed manual transmission (includes all Grand Sports) (Production: 6,359)
1997 Chevrolet Camaro SLP/LT4 SS 6-speed (Production: 100 for the U.S., 6 for Canada. There were 2 prototypes)
1997 Pontiac Firebird SLP/LT4 Firehawk 6-speed (Production: 29)
All 135 production engines for the Firehawks and Camaro SS were completely disassembled, balanced, blueprinted and honed with stress plates. One in 5 engines was tested on a Superflow engine dyno and every car was tested on a chassis dyno in addition to performing a short 6-mile (10 km) road test.

[edit] 3.736 in bore blocks

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Re: Actual HP

Post by 25thhawk » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:20 pm

I can't speak for the lt4 hawks, but PHS did have the records for my car. A 25th anniversary TA firehawk convertible. It is also a non- wu6 coded car because it was done as a non-factory option. However, I called Jim Mattison and he spoke to me extensively about the car and provided me with a document written from Ed Hamburger(SLP) to PHS certifying the car as a "real" firehawk pilot car. I would assume that there is similar documentation for the lt4 cars.

As for the horsepower, I have a 25th ta that dynoed 255 rwhp and 303 rwtq and a 95 firehawk that dynoed 285 rwhp and 310 rwtq. The firehawk has the TOTL and has a small cam and roller rockers, so I don't think there would be much difference stock to stock. Both cars are M6's stock gears, everything else stock.

I don't even think a dealership could supply the right air filter for our cars based off of the vin #, so while I understand your point, the vin # doesn't always guarantee that you will get the right parts.

Ryan

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Re: Actual HP

Post by LT4 Hawk 9 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:22 pm

Good to hear on the PHS documentation! 8)
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Re: Actual HP

Post by BLACK-HAWK » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:38 pm

Image :lol: Image
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Re: Actual HP

Post by 25thhawk » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:48 pm

If your looking for info on your car, or were purchasing a pontiac that doesn't have good paperwork. Definitely give PHS a call. Jim is an awesome guy to talk to, and extremely knowledgeable. He usually doesn't take calls, but I faxed him a letter telling him about the special circumstances of my car and he called me within a couple hours. Great guy and a great service for pontiac owners. I'd be interested to know if slp sent them info for the lt4 cars. I'm sure Dave H knows also.

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